How to get a good smoke ring with my Southern Pride convection smoker?

[Craig Winchell]

I have a little Char-griller offset smoker (approx 500 sq. in + warming
rack) and have never had a problem getting 1/2"-3/4" smoke rings on any of
my meat. I've been having so much fun that I thought I'd go to the next
level and I got a used Southern Pride convection smoker off Ebay (will
theoretically do 600 lbs of meat on 8 racks, though up to now, I"ve never
used more than 2 racks). Problem: no smoke ring when I start unit with
meat in it, barely any smoke ring when I allow it to generate smoke for an
hour or so prior to putting the meat in. Once, I got a nice smoke ring on a
lamb shoulder, but couldn't identify what I had done to accomplish it. Last
time I started with some lump charcoal just to get a fire going in there,
and ended up with a couple millimeter smoke ring. Any suggestions, other
than to get rid of the unit? Because I'm not gonna do that, the results,
aside from the smoke ring, are excellent, and I can leave it and forget
about it for several hours at a time, which I like, rather than being up all
night trying to control a brisket smoke. any help appreciated. I have lots
of tenderquick I bought to make corned beef and pastrami, but I don't wanna
use artificial methods of getting a ring.

Thanks,
Craig Winchell

[Dave Bugg]

Post by Craig Winchell
I have a little Char-griller offset smoker (approx 500 sq. in +
warming rack) and have never had a problem getting 1/2"-3/4" smoke
rings on any of my meat. I've been having so much fun that I thought
I'd go to the next level and I got a used Southern Pride convection
smoker off Ebay (will theoretically do 600 lbs of meat on 8 racks,
though up to now, I"ve never used more than 2 racks). Problem: no
smoke ring when I start unit with meat in it, barely any smoke ring
when I allow it to generate smoke for an hour or so prior to putting
the meat in.

The ring is the result of the reaction of myoglobin to nitrates and nitrites
in the smoke. The key is to make sure that there is adequate smoke exposure.
Lump charcoal can help

[BOB]

Post by Dave Bugg

Post by Craig Winchell
I have a little Char-griller offset smoker (approx 500 sq. in +
warming rack) and have never had a problem getting 1/2"-3/4" smoke
rings on any of my meat. I've been having so much fun that I thought
I'd go to the next level and I got a used Southern Pride convection
smoker off Ebay (will theoretically do 600 lbs of meat on 8 racks,
though up to now, I"ve never used more than 2 racks). Problem: no
smoke ring when I start unit with meat in it, barely any smoke ring
when I allow it to generate smoke for an hour or so prior to putting
the meat in.

The ring is the result of the reaction of myoglobin to nitrates and
nitrites in the smoke. The key is to make sure that there is adequate
smoke exposure. Lump charcoal can help

Tender Quick can give you a pretty good (though sometimes it looks painted
on) smoke ring if you don't have enough smoke.
'-)

BOB
kinda like boilin' ribs...

[Craig Winchell]

Post by BOB

Post by Dave Bugg

Post by Craig Winchell
I have a little Char-griller offset smoker (approx 500 sq. in +
warming rack) and have never had a problem getting 1/2"-3/4" smoke
rings on any of my meat. I've been having so much fun that I thought
I'd go to the next level and I got a used Southern Pride convection
smoker off Ebay (will theoretically do 600 lbs of meat on 8 racks,
though up to now, I"ve never used more than 2 racks). Problem: no
smoke ring when I start unit with meat in it, barely any smoke ring
when I allow it to generate smoke for an hour or so prior to putting
the meat in.

The ring is the result of the reaction of myoglobin to nitrates and
nitrites in the smoke. The key is to make sure that there is adequate
smoke exposure. Lump charcoal can help

Tender Quick can give you a pretty good (though sometimes it looks painted
on) smoke ring if you don't have enough smoke.

As I said in my original post, I don't wanna go that route, though I know it
can be done. What I want to do is figure out a way to generate the
requisite smoke without waiting 5 hours or more for a good fire to get
started in the firebox. After an hour of being turned on, the smoker is
exhibiting plenty of smoke, yet still it doesn't produce a smoke ring. The
burner in the firebox is doing its job of making the wood smolder, but this
smoldering is obviously not providing enough nitrates and nitrites to do the
job with the myoglobin. Is there any alternative to starting lump charcoal
outside in a chimney, then transferring it to the firebox, then putting a
log in the firebox? And would that even work, assuming I could do it, to
provide enough nitrates and nitrites in the smoke early on? I'm assuming
that there must be some BBQ professionals associated with this group, who
have used Southern Prides, and who know the ins and outs of tweaking the
units to get a great smoke ring. Other than the ring, this is a great unit,
and provides wonderful smokey flavor in the meat. I've been thinking that
with only smoldering wood, maybe there really needs to be a fire to provide
the heat necessary in the combustion to produce a good ring. Or maybe it's
produced by another mechanism. Next time, I'll look at transferring live
coals in order to start with a hot fire, and see how that goes. As I say, I
don't want to use my tenderquick for this.

Craig Winchell

Post by BOB
'-)
BOB
kinda like boilin' ribs...

[Tutall]

On Jan 17, 6:11 am, "Craig Winchell" <***@earthlink.net> wrote:

It's your preference and all, but if the taste and texture results are
fine, I don't understand why the lack visuals is such a killer that
you'd return the unit. Just the perfectionist in you coming out? Not
criticizing mind you, just wondering why.

I understand it looks nice and all, did 40 lbs of butt last weekend
using oak wood and you'll never see a better smoke ring than when
using wood. But I'm just as happy eating the stuff cooked over lump
with less of a ring.

[Craig Winchell]

Tutall, I said I *wasn't* going to get rid of the unit. I just want to
learn how to tweak it to get a broad ring. It's an electric unit, and I've
been using hickory, oak and applewood, all logs, to produce some really fine
Q, except for the lack of the rings. I tried with unlit lump the last
time, just thinking that it will get make higher nitrate/nitrite smoke
because it burns where the wood just smolders, and should make for hotter
smoke. And I got some ring, but it was thin. I guess the problem is in
getting a good wood fire going initially in a firebox designed to make wood
smolder rather than burn cleanly. The smoke is copious and thick rather
than being thin blue smoke, which only seems to occur several hours later
after a fire actually gets going in there. That's why I'm thinking my best
bet might be to burn lump in a chimney and get it going, stick it in the
firebox (which is not really designed to stick burning coals into-guess I'll
need to get some fire tongs) and then get a fire going prior to sticking in
the meat- which makes the set-and-forget features of this unit far less
compelling, at least early on in the process.

Craig Winchell

"Tutall" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:2197a6cf-399d-410b-bda5-***@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 17, 6:11 am, "Craig Winchell" <***@earthlink.net> wrote:

It's your preference and all, but if the taste and texture results are
fine, I don't understand why the lack visuals is such a killer that
you'd return the unit. Just the perfectionist in you coming out? Not
criticizing mind you, just wondering why.

I understand it looks nice and all, did 40 lbs of butt last weekend
using oak wood and you'll never see a better smoke ring than when
using wood. But I'm just as happy eating the stuff cooked over lump
with less of a ring.

[Nunya Bidnits]

Post by Craig Winchell
Tutall, I said I *wasn't* going to get rid of the unit. I just want to
learn how to tweak it to get a broad ring. It's an electric unit, and I've
been using hickory, oak and applewood, all logs, to produce some really fine
Q, except for the lack of the rings. I tried with unlit lump the last
time, just thinking that it will get make higher nitrate/nitrite smoke
because it burns where the wood just smolders, and should make for hotter
smoke. And I got some ring, but it was thin. I guess the problem is in
getting a good wood fire going initially in a firebox designed to make wood
smolder rather than burn cleanly. The smoke is copious and thick rather
than being thin blue smoke, which only seems to occur several hours later
after a fire actually gets going in there.

"Electric". Perhaps that's the problem.

Anyway FWIW, and I am not saying this is true or not, but there is a school
of thought which maintains that meat only takes on smoke flavor while its
cool, and as it warms up, the surface seals up, and no further smoke flavor
can actually get into the meat. So if you assume for a moment that this
theory is true, and you only get smoke comparable to your wood only smoker
after quite some time, then maybe, according to the theory, the meat is
getting sealed up by the heat before the right kind of smoke is produced to
create the chemical reaction that makes the smoke ring.

I'm just theorizing here, I can't say this from experience.

MartyB in KC

[Nunya Bidnits]

Post by Tutall
It's your preference and all, but if the taste and texture results are
fine, I don't understand why the lack visuals is such a killer that
you'd return the unit. Just the perfectionist in you coming out? Not
criticizing mind you, just wondering why.
I understand it looks nice and all, did 40 lbs of butt last weekend
using oak wood and you'll never see a better smoke ring than when
using wood. But I'm just as happy eating the stuff cooked over lump
with less of a ring.

FWIW, in competition they teach the judges (at least in KCBS sanctioned
judging) that the smoke ring is a "don't care" feature, not nearly as
important as the appearance (presentation), taste, and tenderness.
Nevertheless many competitors believe it helps them score better in the
appearance column. However, at competitions where the majority of the judges
have been to the judging classes, that is far less likely to hold true since
the judges have basically been taught to ignore it for scoring purposes.

I like the way it looks, but have never found smoke rings to be important to
the flavor. Nevertheless I wouldn't dispute that it improves the enjoyment
of the barbecue for many, since we do eat with our eyes too.

MartyB in KC

[Big Jim]

Post by Craig Winchell

Post by BOB

Post by Dave Bugg

Post by Craig Winchell
I have a little Char-griller offset smoker (approx 500 sq. in +
warming rack) and have never had a problem getting 1/2"-3/4" smoke
rings on any of my meat. I've been having so much fun that I thought
I'd go to the next level and I got a used Southern Pride convection
smoker off Ebay (will theoretically do 600 lbs of meat on 8 racks,
though up to now, I"ve never used more than 2 racks). Problem: no
smoke ring when I start unit with meat in it, barely any smoke ring
when I allow it to generate smoke for an hour or so prior to putting
the meat in.

The ring is the result of the reaction of myoglobin to nitrates and
nitrites in the smoke. The key is to make sure that there is adequate
smoke exposure. Lump charcoal can help

Tender Quick can give you a pretty good (though sometimes it looks
painted on) smoke ring if you don't have enough smoke.

As I said in my original post, I don't wanna go that route, though I know
it can be done. What I want to do is figure out a way to generate the
requisite smoke without waiting 5 hours or more for a good fire to get
started in the firebox. After an hour of being turned on, the smoker is
exhibiting plenty of smoke, yet still it doesn't produce a smoke ring.
The burner in the firebox is doing its job of making the wood smolder, but
this smoldering is obviously not providing enough nitrates and nitrites to
do the job with the myoglobin. Is there any alternative to starting lump
charcoal outside in a chimney, then transferring it to the firebox, then
putting a log in the firebox? And would that even work, assuming I could
do it, to provide enough nitrates and nitrites in the smoke early on? I'm
assuming that there must be some BBQ professionals associated with this
group, who have used Southern Prides, and who know the ins and outs of
tweaking the units to get a great smoke ring. Other than the ring, this
is a great unit, and provides wonderful smokey flavor in the meat. I've
been thinking that with only smoldering wood, maybe there really needs to
be a fire to provide the heat necessary in the combustion to produce a
good ring. Or maybe it's produced by another mechanism. Next time, I'll
look at transferring live coals in order to start with a hot fire, and see
how that goes. As I say, I don't want to use my tenderquick for this.
Craig Winchell

Post by BOB
'-)
BOB
kinda like boilin' ribs...

Why do you feel you need a smoke ring?
If it tastes good, don't worry about it. If you cook direct over hardwood
coals you get great tasting q, but no smoke ring.
Ya don't need a smoke ring for it to be good.
BTW I cooked every day on a Southern Pride SPK500 for 5 years.

[Craig Winchell]

Post by Big Jim

Post by Craig Winchell

Post by BOB

Post by Dave Bugg

Post by Craig Winchell
I have a little Char-griller offset smoker (approx 500 sq. in +
warming rack) and have never had a problem getting 1/2"-3/4" smoke
rings on any of my meat. I've been having so much fun that I thought
I'd go to the next level and I got a used Southern Pride convection
smoker off Ebay (will theoretically do 600 lbs of meat on 8 racks,
though up to now, I"ve never used more than 2 racks). Problem: no
smoke ring when I start unit with meat in it, barely any smoke ring
when I allow it to generate smoke for an hour or so prior to putting
the meat in.

The ring is the result of the reaction of myoglobin to nitrates and
nitrites in the smoke. The key is to make sure that there is adequate
smoke exposure. Lump charcoal can help

Tender Quick can give you a pretty good (though sometimes it looks
painted on) smoke ring if you don't have enough smoke.

As I said in my original post, I don't wanna go that route, though I know
it can be done. What I want to do is figure out a way to generate the
requisite smoke without waiting 5 hours or more for a good fire to get
started in the firebox. After an hour of being turned on, the smoker is
exhibiting plenty of smoke, yet still it doesn't produce a smoke ring.
The burner in the firebox is doing its job of making the wood smolder,
but this smoldering is obviously not providing enough nitrates and
nitrites to do the job with the myoglobin. Is there any alternative to
starting lump charcoal outside in a chimney, then transferring it to the
firebox, then putting a log in the firebox? And would that even work,
assuming I could do it, to provide enough nitrates and nitrites in the
smoke early on? I'm assuming that there must be some BBQ professionals
associated with this group, who have used Southern Prides, and who know
the ins and outs of tweaking the units to get a great smoke ring. Other
than the ring, this is a great unit, and provides wonderful smokey flavor
in the meat. I've been thinking that with only smoldering wood, maybe
there really needs to be a fire to provide the heat necessary in the
combustion to produce a good ring. Or maybe it's produced by another
mechanism. Next time, I'll look at transferring live coals in order to
start with a hot fire, and see how that goes. As I say, I don't want to
use my tenderquick for this.
Craig Winchell

Post by BOB
'-)
BOB
kinda like boilin' ribs...

Why do you feel you need a smoke ring?
If it tastes good, don't worry about it. If you cook direct over hardwood
coals you get great tasting q, but no smoke ring.
Ya don't need a smoke ring for it to be good.
BTW I cooked every day on a Southern Pride SPK500 for 5 years.

Jim:

I'm trying to embark on a new career here, and I want to do it right. I
haven't found a location for a BBQ, but I have a very nice initial unit.
One thing I noticed is that I love to see the smoke ring- it's exciting to
have a piece of brisket which not only smells and tastes fantastic, but also
looks particularly lovely as well. I don't think it's only me. Visual cues
are well known, in the literature of food and beverage psychology, to
trigger strong responses. This can work positively, in the case of a lovely
presentation, or negatively. I want to learn to present as positive a
visual presentation as possible, while at the same time providing excellent
quality, true-to-type Q. I have the flavors and aromas down pat. I've done
beef: brisket, chuck roast, rib roast, back ribs, flanken, and tongue.
Lamb: breasts, shanks, shoulder. Veal: Shoulder and shank. No pork, 'cause
I keep kosher. By varying the rub and the time in the smoker, and
secondarily by varying the wood type, I can do justice to the flavors,
aromas and textures of these meats. I just want to be able to create a
heavenly visual presentation as well. And that's why I would like to
present a robust smoke ring as well.

Craig Winchell

Post by Big Jim
--
James A. "Big Jim" Whitten
www.lazyq.com

[Dave Bugg]

I'm assuming that there must be some BBQ professionals
associated with this group, who have used Southern Prides, ...

Which model are you using, Craig?

[Craig Winchell]

Post by Dave Bugg

I'm assuming that there must be some BBQ professionals
associated with this group, who have used Southern Prides, ...

Which model are you using, Craig?

SC-600. I can get it though doors that other smokers can't, and it
positions easily, which makes it a potentially reasonable first commercial
unit. Of course, I want an Oyler, but that will have to wait. This unit
was cheap, too, for the amount it can do. Literature says it can do 48
briskets at a time, though I think it's more like 32.

Craig Winchell

Post by Dave Bugg
--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

[Dave Bugg]

Post by Craig Winchell

Post by Dave Bugg

I'm assuming that there must be some BBQ professionals
associated with this group, who have used Southern Prides, ...

Which model are you using, Craig?

SC-600. I can get it though doors that other smokers can't, and it
positions easily, which makes it a potentially reasonable first
commercial unit. Of course, I want an Oyler, but that will have to
wait. This unit was cheap, too, for the amount it can do. Literature says
it can do 48 briskets at a time, though I think it's
more like 32.

I'm not familiar with this model. Is it an electric?

[Craig Winchell]

Post by Dave Bugg

Post by Craig Winchell

Post by Dave Bugg

I'm assuming that there must be some BBQ professionals
associated with this group, who have used Southern Prides, ...

Which model are you using, Craig?

SC-600. I can get it though doors that other smokers can't, and it
positions easily, which makes it a potentially reasonable first
commercial unit. Of course, I want an Oyler, but that will have to
wait. This unit was cheap, too, for the amount it can do. Literature
says it can do 48 briskets at a time, though I think it's
more like 32.

I'm not familiar with this model. Is it an electric?

Yes, it's the big brother of the SC-200 convection smoker, but it's quite a
bit bigger. Weighs 1000 lbs, but it's just a rectangular cross section
around 33" deep and 55" across, with double doors and the ability to smoke
600 lbs., runs on 240 single phase, but has a nice sized firebox which can
burn logs, chips or sawdust, and 8 grate racks each with about 8 sq. ft. of
surface area. It's a nice little unit, and far smaller than the gas
rotisserie units for the amount of meat it can smoke, but as it's a
convection unit, it might dry out some cuts of meat more than the
rotisseries, and probably costs more to run because the heat, at least
initially is electric (until a fire gets going). On the other hand, it's
compact enough to fit through a door and make vast amounts of Q, and it's
insulated, so it does a good job outdoors (can't fit it in my house). I
just pulled 220V single from the power to my air conditioning unit, so the
downside is that I can't use it at the same time I use my air conditioner,
without putting it on a second circuit and gettin a new main breaker and
panel. But it's winter now, so I don't need to worry about that. In any
case, I got it for $3000, which I consider a great price. I think Southern
Pride sells them for about $12,000.

Craig Winchell

Post by Dave Bugg
--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

[Dave Bugg]

Post by Craig Winchell
Yes, it's the big brother of the SC-200 convection smoker, but it's
quite a bit bigger.

I have two pits, a Cookshack 250 and an Ole Hickory EL. The Cookshack uses
an electric element and is about 3/4 the capacity of your SP. I don't know
why, but I don't get much of a smoke ring with the Cookshack. I learned from
other users of various electrics that this is typical; electrics don't do
well with smoke-ring production.

My Ole Hickory has a bit larger capacity than your SP, and burns logs. I has
a propane log-lighter that gets things going. The Ole hickory only has to
glance at a hunk-o-meat and it produces gorgeous smoke rings.

The best results for a smoke ring in my Cookshack comes from burning lump
with wood, but it is never close to what a non-electric pit produces.

[Craig Winchell]

Post by Dave Bugg

Post by Craig Winchell
Yes, it's the big brother of the SC-200 convection smoker, but it's
quite a bit bigger.

I have two pits, a Cookshack 250 and an Ole Hickory EL. The Cookshack uses
an electric element and is about 3/4 the capacity of your SP. I don't know
why, but I don't get much of a smoke ring with the Cookshack. I learned
from other users of various electrics that this is typical; electrics
don't do well with smoke-ring production.
My Ole Hickory has a bit larger capacity than your SP, and burns logs. I
has a propane log-lighter that gets things going. The Ole hickory only has
to glance at a hunk-o-meat and it produces gorgeous smoke rings.
The best results for a smoke ring in my Cookshack comes from burning lump
with wood, but it is never close to what a non-electric pit produces.

Thanks. I guess I"ll just learn to live with it, but I'll still try to
figure out why the smoke ring is so elusive. I got a gorgeous one on a lamb
shoulder that I put on about halfway through the smoking of some briskets,
maybe 6 hours in, The next week, I did 2 lamb shoulders about 3 hours after
I stuck a brisket on, I got no smoke ring. So I'm stymied. I guess it's
time for experimentation. When I finally get a location, I"d like to get
another smoker as well. As I say, I'm fantasizing about an Oyler, but Ebay
and BBQ Forum have Old Hickories and Southern Prides pretty inexpensively.

Craig Winchell

Post by Dave Bugg
--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Post by Dave Bugg
I have two pits, a Cookshack 250 and an Ole Hickory EL. The Cookshack uses
an electric element and is about 3/4 the capacity of your SP. I don't
know why, but I don't get much of a smoke ring with the Cookshack. I
learned from other users of various electrics that this is typical;
electrics don't do well with smoke-ring production.

There is a reaction between wood smoke (and the nitrites and nitrates in it)
and the chemicals in the meat that makes the smoke ring. Lack of wood smoke
= no smoke ring.

[Craig Winchell]

Post by Edwin Pawlowski

Post by Dave Bugg
I have two pits, a Cookshack 250 and an Ole Hickory EL. The Cookshack uses
an electric element and is about 3/4 the capacity of your SP. I don't
know why, but I don't get much of a smoke ring with the Cookshack. I
learned from other users of various electrics that this is typical;
electrics don't do well with smoke-ring production.

There is a reaction between wood smoke (and the nitrites and nitrates in
it) and the chemicals in the meat that makes the smoke ring. Lack of wood
smoke = no smoke ring.

Of course, it's the reduction of myoglobin that causes the color. The
question was how to produce enough Nitric -and- Nitrous- oxide-rich=smoke to
get the job done. Because when I stick the meat into the smoker an hour or
2 after I start the smoker up, there's plenty of smoke coming from the
exhaust, but I can't get a smoke ring. I'm thinking it's because the smoke
is from wood smoldering on an electric cal-rod rather than from a fire, and
maybe the smoke isn't rich enough in nitrates and nitrites to make it happen
to an appreciable extent. So maybe the next step is to build a good fire in
the firebox prior to placing the wood in, which means making a bed of live
coals and sticking a log or 2 on top. So that's gonna be the next iteration
of experimentation, and see whether that will promote development of a ring.
And if not, I'll just live with it. Because maybe the ca-rod thing is just
not hot enough to oxidize nitrogen.

Craig Winchell

[Dave Bugg]

Post by Edwin Pawlowski

Post by Dave Bugg
I have two pits, a Cookshack 250 and an Ole Hickory EL. The
Cookshack uses
an electric element and is about 3/4 the capacity of your SP. I
don't know why, but I don't get much of a smoke ring with the
Cookshack. I learned from other users of various electrics that
this is typical; electrics don't do well with smoke-ring production.

There is a reaction between wood smoke (and the nitrites and nitrates
in it) and the chemicals in the meat that makes the smoke ring. Lack
of wood smoke = no smoke ring.

<grin> I know that, Ed. The thing that is baffeling is that the Cookshack
produces plenty of wood smoke in the combustion chamber, but it still
produces a minimum smoke ring. Personally, I don't care a bit 'cause the
product it produces is decent, although not quite as good as what my Ole
Hickory produces. But it is a puzzle. If one were to read through the
Cookshack forum it would be seen that a lack of smoke ring is accepted as
part-n-parcel of using an electric pit.

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Post by Dave Bugg
<grin> I know that, Ed. The thing that is baffeling is that the
Cookshack produces plenty of wood smoke in the combustion chamber, but it
still produces a minimum smoke ring. Personally, I don't care a bit
'cause the product it produces is decent, although not quite as good as
what my Ole Hickory produces. But it is a puzzle. If one were to read
through the Cookshack forum it would be seen that a lack of smoke ring is
accepted as part-n-parcel of using an electric pit.

Could be a temperature thing. Burning wood at different temperatures
produces different mixes of chemicals in the smoke. It may have to be
hotter to get the nitrates flowing. The electric element may be making it
smolder more than burn. Any way to get the wood going better?

[Dave Bugg]

Post by Edwin Pawlowski

Post by Dave Bugg
<grin> I know that, Ed. The thing that is baffeling is that the
Cookshack produces plenty of wood smoke in the combustion chamber,
but it still produces a minimum smoke ring. Personally, I don't
care a bit 'cause the product it produces is decent, although not
quite as good as what my Ole Hickory produces. But it is a puzzle.
If one were to read through the Cookshack forum it would be seen
that a lack of smoke ring is accepted as part-n-parcel of using an
electric pit.

Could be a temperature thing. Burning wood at different temperatures
produces different mixes of chemicals in the smoke. It may have to be
hotter to get the nitrates flowing. The electric element may be
making it smolder more than burn. Any way to get the wood going
better?

You might be onto something, Ed.

[Brick]

Post by Edwin Pawlowski

Post by Dave Bugg
<grin> I know that, Ed. The thing that is baffeling is that the
Cookshack produces plenty of wood smoke in the combustion chamber, but it
still produces a minimum smoke ring. Personally, I don't care a bit
'cause the product it produces is decent, although not quite as good as
what my Ole Hickory produces. But it is a puzzle. If one were to read
through the Cookshack forum it would be seen that a lack of smoke ring is
accepted as part-n-parcel of using an electric pit.

Could be a temperature thing. Burning wood at different temperatures
produces different mixes of chemicals in the smoke. It may have to be
hotter to get the nitrates flowing. The electric element may be making it
smolder more than burn. Any way to get the wood going better?

I hate theories and speculation about cooking but I think Ed is tracking in
the right direction. I would sum it up like this; cooking wood to make it
smoke is not the same as burning wood to get smoke. When I throw
logs on my lump fire, they burn and produce a nice ring. When I wrap
chips and put them on the burner in my gas bullet they don't make a ring
for shit. Same with using foil pouches in my grill. Lots of smoke, but no
smoke ring. I have to consider that the gasses produced by cooking vs
burning are entirely different.

[Denny Wheeler]

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 04:52:52 GMT, "Brick"

Post by Brick

Post by Edwin Pawlowski

Post by Dave Bugg
<grin> I know that, Ed. The thing that is baffeling is that the
Cookshack produces plenty of wood smoke in the combustion chamber, but it
still produces a minimum smoke ring. Personally, I don't care a bit
'cause the product it produces is decent, although not quite as good as
what my Ole Hickory produces. But it is a puzzle. If one were to read
through the Cookshack forum it would be seen that a lack of smoke ring is
accepted as part-n-parcel of using an electric pit.

Could be a temperature thing. Burning wood at different temperatures
produces different mixes of chemicals in the smoke. It may have to be
hotter to get the nitrates flowing. The electric element may be making it
smolder more than burn. Any way to get the wood going better?

I hate theories and speculation about cooking but I think Ed is tracking in
the right direction. I would sum it up like this; cooking wood to make it
smoke is not the same as burning wood to get smoke. When I throw
logs on my lump fire, they burn and produce a nice ring. When I wrap
chips and put them on the burner in my gas bullet they don't make a ring
for shit. Same with using foil pouches in my grill. Lots of smoke, but no
smoke ring. I have to consider that the gasses produced by cooking vs
burning are entirely different.

No arguments there, but a question: do you notice a difference in
flavor and/or texture between what you get from the lump & log combo
vs what you get from the gas bullet with chips?
My bullet's gas-fired, but I can run it with lump, though the
(sand-filled) water pan sits awfully close to what would be the fire
pan in that case. Thus far, I've used lump with it only for grilling.

Still doing the mental "WSM or some variant of offset" debate, here.
(and not discarding the idea of a BGE or other kamado-type unit)

"Every single religion that has a monotheistic god
winds up persecuting someone else."
-Philip Pullman
--
-denny-
(not as curmudgeonly as I useta be)

[Brick]

Post by Denny Wheeler
On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 04:52:52 GMT, "Brick"

<snip>

Post by Denny Wheeler

Post by Brick
I hate theories and speculation about cooking but I think Ed is tracking in
the right direction. I would sum it up like this; cooking wood to make it
smoke is not the same as burning wood to get smoke. When I throw
logs on my lump fire, they burn and produce a nice ring. When I wrap
chips and put them on the burner in my gas bullet they don't make a ring
for shit. Same with using foil pouches in my grill. Lots of smoke, but no
smoke ring. I have to consider that the gasses produced by cooking vs
burning are entirely different.

No arguments there, but a question: do you notice a difference in
flavor and/or texture between what you get from the lump & log combo
vs what you get from the gas bullet with chips?

I don't know just how to answer that question. Yes there is a significant
difference. The smoke taste from my offset is very assertive. The difference
between one wood type and another is quite evident. Wheras the smoke
taste from the gas bullet is kind of wimpy. Consider the comparison of
the smell of hot burning leaves carried on clear autumn air versus a
smoldering, nearly burned out campfire close by with calm air.

[Denny Wheeler]

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 03:36:28 GMT, "Brick"

Post by Brick

Post by Denny Wheeler
No arguments there, but a question: do you notice a difference in
flavor and/or texture between what you get from the lump & log combo
vs what you get from the gas bullet with chips?

I don't know just how to answer that question. Yes there is a significant
difference. The smoke taste from my offset is very assertive. The difference
between one wood type and another is quite evident. Wheras the smoke
taste from the gas bullet is kind of wimpy. Consider the comparison of
the smell of hot burning leaves carried on clear autumn air versus a
smoldering, nearly burned out campfire close by with calm air.

Brick, for a guy who didn't know how to answer, you gave a damn' fine
one.

"Every single religion that has a monotheistic god
winds up persecuting someone else."
-Philip Pullman
--
-denny-
(not as curmudgeonly as I useta be)

[Sqwertz]

Post by BOB
Tender Quick can give you a pretty good (though sometimes it looks painted
on) smoke ring if you don't have enough smoke.
'-)

Liquid smoke will also give you a smoke ring when brushed on and
baked in the oven. Wrapping a small roast in bacon will give you
a smoke ring, too.

-sw

[Abe]

Post by Craig Winchell
I have a little Char-griller offset smoker (approx 500 sq. in + warming
rack) and have never had a problem getting 1/2"-3/4" smoke rings on any of
my meat. I've been having so much fun that I thought I'd go to the next
level and I got a used Southern Pride convection smoker off Ebay (will
theoretically do 600 lbs of meat on 8 racks, though up to now, I"ve never
used more than 2 racks). Problem: no smoke ring when I start unit with
meat in it, barely any smoke ring when I allow it to generate smoke for an
hour or so prior to putting the meat in. Once, I got a nice smoke ring on a
lamb shoulder, but couldn't identify what I had done to accomplish it. Last
time I started with some lump charcoal just to get a fire going in there,
and ended up with a couple millimeter smoke ring. Any suggestions, other
than to get rid of the unit? Because I'm not gonna do that, the results,
aside from the smoke ring, are excellent, and I can leave it and forget
about it for several hours at a time, which I like, rather than being up all
night trying to control a brisket smoke. any help appreciated. I have lots
of tenderquick I bought to make corned beef and pastrami, but I don't wanna
use artificial methods of getting a ring.
Thanks,
Craig Winchell

Add several wood chunks at the beginning and again halfway through the
cooking.

[Craig Winchell]

Post by Abe

Post by Craig Winchell
I have a little Char-griller offset smoker (approx 500 sq. in + warming
rack) and have never had a problem getting 1/2"-3/4" smoke rings on any of
my meat. I've been having so much fun that I thought I'd go to the next
level and I got a used Southern Pride convection smoker off Ebay (will
theoretically do 600 lbs of meat on 8 racks, though up to now, I"ve never
used more than 2 racks). Problem: no smoke ring when I start unit with
meat in it, barely any smoke ring when I allow it to generate smoke for an
hour or so prior to putting the meat in. Once, I got a nice smoke ring on a
lamb shoulder, but couldn't identify what I had done to accomplish it.
Last
time I started with some lump charcoal just to get a fire going in there,
and ended up with a couple millimeter smoke ring. Any suggestions, other
than to get rid of the unit? Because I'm not gonna do that, the results,
aside from the smoke ring, are excellent, and I can leave it and forget
about it for several hours at a time, which I like, rather than being up all
night trying to control a brisket smoke. any help appreciated. I have lots
of tenderquick I bought to make corned beef and pastrami, but I don't wanna
use artificial methods of getting a ring.
Thanks,
Craig Winchell

Add several wood chunks at the beginning and again halfway through the
cooking.

I have wood going continuously throughout the cooking.

Craig

[Gil Faver]

what the heck is a smoke ring?

[Dave Bugg]

Post by Gil Faver
what the heck is a smoke ring?

It was explained in the thread.

[Gil Faver]

Post by Dave Bugg

Post by Gil Faver
what the heck is a smoke ring?

It was explained in the thread.

Well Dave, no it wasn't. If it was, I wouldn't have asked. You explained
what "it was the result of", others indicated it had an appearance which may
or may not be of importance.

So, what IS it? What does it look like?

[Tutall]

Post by Dave Bugg

Post by Gil Faver
what the heck is a smoke ring?

It was explained in the thread.

Well Dave, no it wasn't.  If it was, I wouldn't have asked.  You explained
what "it was the result of", others indicated it had an appearance which may
or may not be of importance.
So, what IS it?  What does it look like?

It's various shapes of red and is found on the surface of the meat to
various depths, depending on curcumstances.

Here's an example:
Loading Image...
Loading Image...

[Gil Faver]

Post by Dave Bugg

Post by Gil Faver
what the heck is a smoke ring?

It was explained in the thread.

Well Dave, no it wasn't. If it was, I wouldn't have asked. You explained
what "it was the result of", others indicated it had an appearance which may
or may not be of importance.
So, what IS it? What does it look like?

It's various shapes of red and is found on the surface of the meat to
various depths, depending on curcumstances.

Here's an example:
http://www.ntscblog.com/images/fullsize/smoke_tx_saus_3.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1207/877757038_f978cecaee.jpg

thanks much. I didn't get that at all from the thread. Now I'm hungry.

[Nunya Bidnits]

Post by Gil Faver
what the heck is a smoke ring?

It the ring a guy promises his girl when proposing if he has no money.

(ducking)

MartyB in KC

[Matt]

Post by Craig Winchell
I have a little Char-griller offset smoker (approx 500 sq. in + warming
rack) and have never had a problem getting 1/2"-3/4" smoke rings on any of
my meat. I've been having so much fun that I thought I'd go to the next
level and I got a used Southern Pride convection smoker off Ebay (will
theoretically do 600 lbs of meat on 8 racks, though up to now, I"ve never
used more than 2 racks). Problem: no smoke ring when I start unit with
meat in it, barely any smoke ring when I allow it to generate smoke for an
hour or so prior to putting the meat in. Once, I got a nice smoke ring on
a lamb shoulder, but couldn't identify what I had done to accomplish it.
Last time I started with some lump charcoal just to get a fire going in
there, and ended up with a couple millimeter smoke ring. Any suggestions,
other than to get rid of the unit? Because I'm not gonna do that, the
results, aside from the smoke ring, are excellent, and I can leave it and
forget about it for several hours at a time, which I like, rather than
being up all night trying to control a brisket smoke. any help
appreciated. I have lots of tenderquick I bought to make corned beef and
pastrami, but I don't wanna use artificial methods of getting a ring.
Thanks,
Craig Winchell

Electric smokers won't produce a smoke ring, but who cares?!? You can't
taste the smoke ring.

[Craig Winchell]

Post by Matt

Post by Craig Winchell
I have a little Char-griller offset smoker (approx 500 sq. in + warming
rack) and have never had a problem getting 1/2"-3/4" smoke rings on any of
my meat. I've been having so much fun that I thought I'd go to the next
level and I got a used Southern Pride convection smoker off Ebay (will
theoretically do 600 lbs of meat on 8 racks, though up to now, I"ve never
used more than 2 racks). Problem: no smoke ring when I start unit with
meat in it, barely any smoke ring when I allow it to generate smoke for an
hour or so prior to putting the meat in. Once, I got a nice smoke ring on
a lamb shoulder, but couldn't identify what I had done to accomplish it.
Last time I started with some lump charcoal just to get a fire going in
there, and ended up with a couple millimeter smoke ring. Any suggestions,
other than to get rid of the unit? Because I'm not gonna do that, the
results, aside from the smoke ring, are excellent, and I can leave it and
forget about it for several hours at a time, which I like, rather than
being up all night trying to control a brisket smoke. any help
appreciated. I have lots of tenderquick I bought to make corned beef and
pastrami, but I don't wanna use artificial methods of getting a ring.
Thanks,
Craig Winchell

Electric smokers won't produce a smoke ring, but who cares?!? You can't
taste the smoke ring.

As I say, it's just for aesthetics. First of all, I love the color, and to
me, all other things being equal, it makes the meat look more inviting.
Secondly, I really believe that in a commercial venture, with so many
options out there in the marketplace, every effort must be made to create in
the consumer a sense that he's eating something different and distinct from
the norm, and I think the ring helps to create a positive perception in that
regard. As an established BBQ connoiseur, you (and I ) know that it doesn't
make a difference in the flavor of the product. For a novice, though,
perceptions and impressions can mean a great deal. Of course, the bottom
line is that the consumer enjoys the food and the experience, so the quality
and flavor of the food is the primary concern. But secondarily, anything
the proprietor can do to create a positive perception that the food is
different, and that the difference makes it better, can positively affect
the bottom line.

Craig Winchell

[Dave Bugg]

Post by Craig Winchell
As I say, it's just for aesthetics. First of all, I love the color,
and to me, all other things being equal, it makes the meat look more
inviting.

If you plan on doing chickens, a smoke ring can be a big headache with
customers. Chickens in the Ole Hickory always gained a pink/red coloring
which anyone familiar with smoke-roasted chickens knows is normal. But for
customers in general there is a fear of ANY reddish coloring in chickens or
turkey. I can't count the times that customers wanted to return
"undercooked" chicken EVEN with large-point and bold print on the menu
explaning the smoke-ring phenomenom. I've even have had new customers loudly
and irrationally shout at me about the uncooked chicken, threatening to sue
if they became ill and vow to "tell their friends and co-workers" about the
unsafe food.

This is never a problem with chickens done in the Cookshack, which is why I
only do my chickens in the CS. My Ole Hickory does everything else, but not
chicken anymore.

Post by Craig Winchell
Secondly, I really believe that in a commercial venture,
with so many options out there in the marketplace, every effort must
be made to create in the consumer a sense that he's eating something
different and distinct from the norm, and I think the ring helps to
create a positive perception in that regard.

See my comment above. I've used the smoke-ring to educate my customers to
understand it's value in real barbecue. But there are so many more important
criteria of what good bbq is, that you'll have a bunch of other marketing
points to make to the consumers in your area.

Post by Craig Winchell
As an established BBQ
connoiseur, you (and I ) know that it doesn't make a difference in
the flavor of the product. For a novice, though, perceptions and
impressions can mean a great deal.

If I may, I would like to point out that you're concern is backwards :-)
the novices are pretty ignorant about the smoke ring and don't know what it
means. It is the connoiseur that may wonder whre the ring is :-)

Post by Craig Winchell
Of course, the bottom line is
that the consumer enjoys the food and the experience, so the quality
and flavor of the food is the primary concern. But secondarily,
anything the proprietor can do to create a positive perception that
the food is different, and that the difference makes it better, can
positively affect the bottom line.

<grin> I was a lot like you, Craig, and thought it would be a big deal for
customers who, in my area, didn't know bbq from marmot hole. Guess what?
When told about the 'sign of the smoke ring' the response was more like,
"Uh, ok. This stuff's great, give me another pulled-pork sandwich to go"

[Chef Juke]

Post by Dave Bugg

Post by Craig Winchell
As I say, it's just for aesthetics. First of all, I love the color,
and to me, all other things being equal, it makes the meat look more
inviting.

If you plan on doing chickens, a smoke ring can be a big headache with
customers. Chickens in the Ole Hickory always gained a pink/red coloring
which anyone familiar with smoke-roasted chickens knows is normal. But for
customers in general there is a fear of ANY reddish coloring in chickens or
turkey. I can't count the times that customers wanted to return
"undercooked" chicken EVEN with large-point and bold print on the menu
explaning the smoke-ring phenomenom. I've even have had new customers loudly
and irrationally shout at me about the uncooked chicken, threatening to sue
if they became ill and vow to "tell their friends and co-workers" about the
unsafe food.
This is never a problem with chickens done in the Cookshack, which is why I
only do my chickens in the CS. My Ole Hickory does everything else, but not
chicken anymore.

Post by Craig Winchell
Secondly, I really believe that in a commercial venture,
with so many options out there in the marketplace, every effort must
be made to create in the consumer a sense that he's eating something
different and distinct from the norm, and I think the ring helps to
create a positive perception in that regard.

See my comment above. I've used the smoke-ring to educate my customers to
understand it's value in real barbecue. But there are so many more important
criteria of what good bbq is, that you'll have a bunch of other marketing
points to make to the consumers in your area.

Post by Craig Winchell
As an established BBQ
connoiseur, you (and I ) know that it doesn't make a difference in
the flavor of the product. For a novice, though, perceptions and
impressions can mean a great deal.

If I may, I would like to point out that you're concern is backwards :-)
the novices are pretty ignorant about the smoke ring and don't know what it
means. It is the connoiseur that may wonder whre the ring is :-)

Post by Craig Winchell
Of course, the bottom line is
that the consumer enjoys the food and the experience, so the quality
and flavor of the food is the primary concern. But secondarily,
anything the proprietor can do to create a positive perception that
the food is different, and that the difference makes it better, can
positively affect the bottom line.

<grin> I was a lot like you, Craig, and thought it would be a big deal for
customers who, in my area, didn't know bbq from marmot hole. Guess what?
When told about the 'sign of the smoke ring' the response was more like,
"Uh, ok. This stuff's great, give me another pulled-pork sandwich to go"

Cming in late on this thread but Dave has already made the point I was
gonna make after reading the first few posts.

Folks who know little about the nature of barbecue will likely be any
Barbecue restaurant/caterers main clientele and they will not likely
know or care about the riing. Folks who do know Barbecue really well,
will know, but not have to high expectations from ANY BBQ restaurant
(ask anyone in this newsgroup where the best barbecue is in their
hometown and they will all likely answer "My House" rather than any
restaurant). Finally, you will have the folks in the middle...once
who know just enough to be dangerous (or, more likely, to make an ass
of themselves). You will likely get a handful of these gourmands, but
I don't really think there will be enough of them to make much of a
differnce in how you and your 'q are received.

Focus on flavor, texture, location, marketing, location, more
marketing, startup capital, location and then find a good location.
Don't worry too much about the smoke ring, or lack thereof.

;-)

-Chef Juke
"EVERYbody Eats when they come to MY house!"
http://www.chefjuke.com

[Dana Myers]

Hello Craig,

Have you considered cold-smoking the meat to develop an
extended smoke ring? Something like a Bradley smoke
generator into a refrigerator might work, though I
wonder about the chance of getting too much smoke into
the meat this way; you'd have to go easy when actually
cooking the meat. I've never tried this myself, though,
and it would require some experimentation to get the
effect you want - if it is possible at all :-).

There are probably also additional food safety issues to
think about, especially for a commercial operation. Our
resident expert on that topic is none other than Dave Bugg.

Cheers,
Dana

[Sqwertz]

Post by Craig Winchell
Problem: no smoke ring when I start unit with
meat in it, barely any smoke ring when I allow it to generate smoke for an
hour or so prior to putting the meat in.

Come to think of it, the local BBQ place here uses a Southern
Pride and they have very little if any smoke ring, especially on
their briskets and shicken. The meat is still very excellent.

They use a different model - I would guess something like the SPK
700.

-sw